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The Evolving Word is designed for three purposes: miscellaneous rambling (a token gesture, as there are a million sites designed for this), my creative publishing, and thoughts and news on words -- origins, differences, anomalies, etc.

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Religion and politics
Posted on Wednesday, September 29 @ 09:23 AM PST by joel

Politics I respect reasoned opinion. I may not always agree with it, but if you make an argument that is well thought out I will respect your right to those opinions and I will fight for you to have those opinions. This is, of course, the beauty of our freedom. Joe Schmoe can believe that a beer bottle is his savior and unless he hurts someone else, we pretty much let him do what he wants. We may laugh at him and call him names, but that is also our right.

There are times, though, that I just don't understand the logic behind an argument. Some opinions seem to masquerade as factual, reasonable dissertations on important topics, while really just an outlet for frustration and anger. When people I respect and love offer up these types of arguments, I have a hard time not offering an opposing viewpoint.

When Jon posted this article on his website, I had to reply. Rather than take up his space with my rebuttal, I figured that I would post it below for your enjoyment. Please feel free to disagree, throw things at me and call me names. That's the stuff that good times are made of.

Jon:

I am surprised at the lack of perspective in this article. It's your website, and your right to post this stuff, but if you want to argue that Christianity is more righteous than Islam, you've done a pretty bad job. The arguments here are specious, filled with rhetoric ("kidnapping ... has been a tactic of Islamic activists for years" - activists? A clear attempt to portray the middle as the extreme.) and poor citations ("93% of [muslims] supported the kidnappings." -- read the citation again because the original article is weak on details, other than it was a survey of Arab countries, not Muslims in general). It is easy to find websites that collaborate any view of any religion you want. I can pick and choose quotes from any source to back up an assertion that a particular religion tolerates, even promotes, violence against its foes. Isn't the Old Testament filled with this stuff? But if I were to write a diatribe against Christianity based on this stuff, I would be dismissed as an extremist, twisting the very nature of Christianity.

I think the bigger question revolves around the increasing popularity of the extremist viewpoints in Middle Eastern culture. Drawing on selected interpretations of the Koran (how do we know that these aren't the Pat Robertsons of Islam?), these extremists have successfully drawn Americans into a religious war. We have played right into their hands by ignoring the tenets of our own religions and travelling thousands of miles to kill Middle Easterners, regardless of their religious views.

Oh, but what about revenge for September 11, 2001? That's right, I forgot that the Bible tells us to avenge our fallen brothers, to kill terrorists wherever they are in the world. I think it was you, Jon, who posted a couple of years ago that we should pave over Afghanistan, essentially destroying any remnant of that civilization (I can't find the post because your archive only goes back to 2003). While we had every right, I believe (personally, not religiously), to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan for their role in that attack on our soil, this continued aggression, both actual and implied (our veiled threats to Iran and renewed development of small-scale nuclear weapons included), is at the height of immorality. We have turned away from the teachings of Jesus to proactively kill anyone who appears to threaten us.

Can you seriously argue that Christianity defends what our government is doing overseas right now? Or is it more a matter of sinning now and asking forgiveness later? You say, "Let them know that we love Jesus" without properly defining the context for your statement. Argue, please, that showing love for Jesus is accomplished by killing over 10,000 Iraqi citizens, who may or may not have been Muslim and who may or may not have supported the extremists, and sacrificing over 1,000 of our own troops. If you provide rationalization, please understand that we are responsible for the results of our actions, not just our actions. Explain to me the Biblical justification for what we are doing, and I will defend it as well. I believe that any argument about the morality and righteousness of this war is destined to fail against any Christian analysis.

Finally, I realized the true reason for this post was to bash Kerry. It took a while, but it became clear at the end that this was a natural outgrowth from your political research. Fine. But spare me the long intro and make sure that you state your purpose in the beginning, so that I have that context to review this with in the first place. Just remember, though, that quotes like, "a President who once courted Communism, was almost involved in a plot to kill U.S. Senators, is regarded in Vietnam as the war hero who had the single greatest impact to bring about U.S. defeat, and who has actively voted to reduce our country’s ability to defend itself?" do nothing to advance political discourse. Each element is defensible, if you take the time to understand the reasoning and try not to buy into right-wing propagandizing. In the end, I would caution against trying to tie religious arguments in with the presidential candidates that we have today. It is a lost cause.

Me? I am saddened by the choices we are given to lead our country. Both candidates are mouthpieces for the status quo. They are proud to announce their differences, while on a scale of -100 to 100 they are at -.01 and .01. Both have a vested interest in talking up their moderate views while scheming with their true beliefs. The discussion of Vietnam war medals, National Guard service, old money and Nazi affiliations serves only to distract the American public from issues of importance. For all the civility that no longer exists in this national electrion, I half expect the two candidates to drop their pants Thursday night and ask us to vote on who has the bigger penis. That is what we have been reduced to.

Jon, I respect you because you are intelligent and compassionate. I know that you have strong opinions and strong feelings, and are more than capable of eloquently stating them. Don't try to underestimate your readers, though, by using faulty logic ("an Islamic religious war is being waged on peaceful people") and weak counter-argument deflections ("Call me an intolerant ignoramus if it’ll make you feel better.") to bolster a viewpoint that advocates stereotypes and encourages racism. I hope that your further exposition on this topic will help to explain better the reasons you have for writing this post.

ADDENDUM:
As of this writing, you have responded to some of the comments on your site. You defend your argument by stating that you are not quoting out of context. By quoting full passages, you are sure that you have Islam figured out. Interesting...and also somewhat fallible since the same argument can be made that people can quote entire books of the Bible and potentially come to mischaracterized conclusions about Christianity.

I can't quite ignore the fact that you tied all of this into politics, though. If you had just avoided bringing it into the debate, I might have a different perspective on your beliefs. But the wholehearted rejection of a candidate based on right-wing attacks seems to indicate a willingness to support, well, George W. Bush. You may say that you are still undecided, or you may not, but either way, if you are going to argue morality, decency, religious tolerance and the supremacy of Christianity, please try to do it without invoking a man who mocks the religion he claims to adhere to.


 
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Re: Religion and politics (Score: 1)
by Shannon on Wednesday, September 29 @ 02:11 PM PST
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These kind of posts make me sick - Joel, you are hiding behind your itellectualism and in my opinion, talking out of your butt. You are someone who has never had a personal relationship with God, therefore not believing that you need one.

As someone who often does not agree with my husband and his posts on our website, I am not coming from a postion where I need to defend him. His post was not Anti-Kerry - it was just giving information on what he learned about Islam. We both have taken a class on Islam and listened to a talk involving a Muslim who became a Christian. So Jon, in addition to all the research he did online, comes from a very correct standpoint. The Kerry comment is typical Jon humor where he jokes about something and it is not appropriate.

I think it would be interesting to hear an Erin pov because she comes from a Christian backround.



Re: Religion and politics (Score: 1)
by Admin on Wednesday, September 29 @ 02:33 PM PST
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Shannon,

You have every right to defend your husband's viewpoints. But let me ask this -- who taught the class on Islam? Was it your church? Are you confident that the information you were presented was unbiased? If so, I respect that. I may still disagree, but I respect that.

I think the mistake you make here is that the Kerry comment wasn't just a joke. It was quite forceful and devoid of any sense of humor. It is clear that Jon had a strong opinion about Kerry -- read the paragraph again:

"Now the question becomes… is this really the time in history that you want to have a President who is part of a political ideology that, for some reason, hates Western culture while sitting on his $1 billion net worth that very same culture afforded him? Are you prepared to defend yourself and your family from attack by Muslims if you have a President who once courted Communism, was almost involved in a plot to kill U.S. Senators, is regarded in Vietnam as the war hero who had the single greatest impact to bring about U.S. defeat, and who has actively voted to reduce our country’s ability to defend itself?"

He even follows it up with "More on Kerry later.", implying that this is just the beginning of his rant. Of course, if he backs off these comments and says, "Oh, all that Kerry stuff is a joke," then I will apologize. I don't think that will happen, though.

Two other things -- "hiding behind your intellectualism"? Really? Because I question the evaluation of Islam by a Christian, my whole argument is worthless because of intellectualism? I am very proud of my intellectualism, and I will never hide behind it. I see, though, how intellectualism can be a problem -- it forces us to question our own country, our own beliefs, and to be brave enough to question the status quo. I have no problem with this, I just want it to be known that I am not hiding behind anything.

Finally -- talking out of my butt? Personal relationship with God? Really? You feel qualified to judge me in this way? Please define a "personal relationship with God". I assume that you mean attending church every Sunday. If it's that...okay, you got me. But if it has to do with larger issues -- morality, ethics, lifestyle choices -- you're going to have to bring a better argument.

I love both of you and I understand that this is a touchy issue. I don't expect that any of us will come to agreement on these things. But if you expect me to read Jon's post and say, "Yeah -- he's got it all right!"...that ain't going to happen.



Re: Religion and politics (Score: 1)
by nickel on Wednesday, September 29 @ 02:58 PM PST
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It was meant to be the humor of the preposterous. It's supposed to get you upset and eager to see where the heck I'm gonna go with it. It was designed to illicit the response "That's some crazy stuff to be saying about Kerry... how's he going to back that up? I can't wait until he posts again!"

I am sorry if it has made you unable to take seriously the things I learned about the teachings of Islam.



Re: Religion and politics (Score: 1)
by KathiK on Wednesday, October 06 @ 07:02 PM PST
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I am in no way equipped to jump into the thick of this, but Joel, I find it interesting how many of your arguments fall into line with the Mennonite way. We also share your disappointment with the candidates and many struggle with the decision of whether or not to vote, when doing so would simply be settling for the lesser evil. Just my 2 cents.



 
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